eternal conscious torment definition

... We have already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire for the devil (Rev. Let my readers mark well this fact: These verses, some of the strongest quoted in favor of eternal conscious torment, are speaking of the burning of dead corpses only! Dogmatizing About Eternal Conscience Torment in Hell Kurt Simmons . If a person unrepentently rebels against God and makes himself or herself miserable through sin (usually spreading misery to others as well), the kindest, most merciful thing God could do is to let such a person die, which is the “wages of sin” (Romans 6:23). What I think is more important for this specific discussion though is to note that most pastors who study this verse completely ignore the Greek word that is translated as punishment. Before we proceed, here is an abbreviation: ECT = Eternal, Conscious Torment (the traditional view). Both agelong and eternal are wrong. 27:4. Consider this simple illustration: If I took a man, tied him to a chair, and tormented him for five minutes with a lighter, would this not be a form of torture? Few passages from the Old Testament are cited as evidence that hell is a place of eternal torment. 1 year ago. Eternal conscious torment is consistent in that the only thing that the wicked have not yet faced is God’s full wrath in the body. My thesis is both positive and negative. Aka, having to do with an age. We are so persuaded of our position, and so confident in the Scriptural evidence presented on this site, that we honestly do not believe that anyone who shares our faith in the final authority of Scripture will be able to cling to endless torment after reading this entire site and the links. The scripture testifies to that as well. Eternal Punishment. From what I've read, Purgatorial Universalism, Annihilationism, and Eternal Conscious Torment were taught in the early Church. And existing means life of some kind. Eternal conscious torment is a fitting punishment for sin committed against a great and infinitely glorious God. So what does Matthew 25:46 really mean? Therefore everlasting destruction is not self-inflicted at all; it is executed by God himself as the just consequences for a person’s bad choices (Matthew 10:28, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 & James 4:12). Simply put, aionion doesn’t mean eternal any more than angry means happiness. It is that of “eternal conscious torment” for all those who do not “accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” in this life. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with … I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. You will only find these erroneous mistranslations in some English Bible translations. save hide report. "Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. Since the concept of “agelong” involves a beginning and an end, this would technically have the concept of being temporary. All four traits apply to him. One of these passages concerns the torment of fallen angels. You’re telling me that God didn’t even mention ONCE for thousands of years about this place called hell? Why did Eternal Conscious Torment become the majority view of hell instead of Annihilationism or Purgatorial Universalism? Winner x 1 100% Upvoted. Featured Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not? Eternal Conscious Torment. For now, here is another scriptural example of how God “pertains to” – without being limited to – what he creates: God is the “God of heaven and the God of the earth.” (Genesis 24:4-3) Which one cancels out the other? Parents and clergy have used it as a threat to pull offenders back into line, while others have even considered it comforting that the “bad guys” will get the justice they deserve in the end. In Defense of the Eternal Conscious Torment View of Hell February 29, 2016 Preston Sprinkle Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! But, when another Christian claims that such a thing denies God’s immorality, he is committing the error of “Affirming a Disjunct.” Here is how you know: 1 Timothy 1:17 – Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal (aphthartos), invisible (aoratos), the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever (eis aion aion). Rather, “aionios God” refers to the generational presence of God throughout the ages, as David continually taught. In this episode of The Remnant Radio, Jordan Sutton is coming on the show to discuss conditionalism. Really, it doesn’t because the very concept of eternity defies pluralization of itself. How so? Featured Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not? Because these verses are directly related to Matthew 18:9 and 5:29-100, all six references are thus irrelevant concerning eternal conscious torment. Think of it like a mortgage—at some point, you pay it off and satisfy the debt. But, at closer examination, both of logic and the scripture, it actually falls apart. By that I mean, hell is not a place where people who sin and disbelieve are sent to be punished and tortured. His contention is that hell, the lake of fire, is indeed a place of torment, but it is not a torture chamber for “unlike torture, which is inflicted from without against one’s will, torment is self-inflicted” (Geisler 34, from Everything You Wanted to Know about Hell). Mark 9:45-46 However, the former two have now largely fallen out of favour, and even across the thousands of denominations of Christianity the ECT view has taken an extremely dominant position. The answer to both questions is obvious and offers proof that the idea of eternal torment is indeed a profoundly disturbing concept which naturally offends our God-given moral and judicial instincts: The only way Geisler and like-minded people can accept this idea and live with themselves is by convincing themselves that their good, loving God is not the one carrying out or authorizing this sadistic sentence. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Rev. Many proponents of annihilationism understand death to mean the cessation of existence, especially conscious existence. I can understand how a reader, uninformed about the background of this verse, might think of eternal, conscious torment. Just to visualize this further, look at some of these common nouns and their adjective forms: You get the point. Now, did King David mean to suggest that because God’s years are throughout all generations, that such a thing LIMITS God? Does forever actually need another “ever” attached to make it infinite? The position which I will defend in this essay is what is sometimes referred to as the traditional, or eternal conscious torment, position (hereafter, ECT). Hell and hellfire, lake of fire is throughout the whole of scripture. The Bible says that Jesus died for the church (Ephesians 5:25). After death there is no longer any hope considered for them. Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Dec 28, 2019. Second, there is the view of Annihilationism which is sometimes referred to as “Conditional Immortality.” All rights reserved. Generations represent continual progression of ages in time. Does God really torment people eternally in hell? Instead, they should have reasoned that kolasis was corrective, therefore eonian cannot be endless.”. Here’s why. He is God of both. Let’s be truthful and candid enough to call a spade a spade! The Greek scholar, A.E. This is known as the eternal conscious torment (ECT) view. God is big, even bigger than the universe, but is He limited to being big? Yet despite the complete silence in the Hebrew Scriptures about eternal conscious torment in hell, people today continue to hold to the doctrine, primarily because they believe it is taught in the New Testament. The former, minimal confession would be consistent with eternal conscious torment, annihilationism and universal reconciliation, but Keller (inconsistently) limits his apologetic defense to the first of these three views. A moral objection to eternal conscious torment (ECT) is that if sinners are tormented in hell for all eternity (or, to be more precise, the lake of fire), then God’s justice is never satisfied. In this issue, Christians often commit a logical error called Affirming a Disjunct, which is to fallaciously claim that one distinction cancels out all other distinctions. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments. First, here’s the definition of correction understood in today’s use of English: MacMillian’s Dictionary also has the same understanding: “the action of changing something in order to make it correct or accurate”, This is important to highlight because the English word “correction” understood today still maintains the original purpose first used in Old English that came from Latin origins: “corrigere” – which means to ‘make straight, bring into order’. A moral objection to eternal conscious torment (ECT) is that if sinners are tormented in hell for all eternity (or, to be more precise, the lake of fire), then God’s justice is never satisfied. The reason the bible doesn’t speak in such a ludicrous way is simply because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. Where do the annihilationists get it wrong? In this one scripture, not only does Paul affirm that God is of the age (aion), he also confirms that God has glory and honor “unto the ages of the ages,” just as King David also said that “God’s years are throughout all generations.“. After death there is no longer any hope considered for them. In Christ Alone. Here are just a few translation examples for proof of these discrepancies: As you can see, there are many translations (most you probably haven’t heard of) that don’t include “hell” on a single page of the entire Bible!! ... Hell is the LOF, as the LOF is the place of eternal punishment, which is the definition of hell. Why does Mr. Geisler have such a problem with the word “torture” as a descriptive term for his belief in never-ending conscious torment? Of course, if only one point stands, Matthew 25 cannot … But for Christians to ascribe such activity to the Creator of all mankind is simply terribly misguided thinking.”, I have read and agree to the terms & conditions. God will never die, or end just because ages do, but doesn’t God relate to what he creates, even if He is not limited to what he creates? Richardson hopes to make a robust case for traditionalism / Eternal Conscious Torment {hereafter ECT} by arguing inductively from soul immortality, often referring to her clarion cry of Mt. This argument is more unbiblical mumbo jumbo. The problem with the idea that eternal conscious torment does not benefit God or the one that God punishes is that it mistakenly assumes there must be a benefit to God and to those punished. Eternal Torment. Let’s now return to Keller’s key definition: Now for the word “eternal”, which comes from the Greek word “aionion/aionios“: Strong’s 166: Notice how it says the definition could be “agelong” or “eternal”. Daniel 12:2 and “Eternal Contempt” 1 Adapted From The Bible Teaches Annihilationism by Joseph Dear, Section XX. Of course he does. What are the best scriptural arguments for an eternal hell? Guess what? Before arguing for one meaning of death and against another, it is important to understand the opposing view. What has compelled him to create his own personal and unbiblical definition for “torment” (that it is only self-inflicted)? So, if “aion” means “age/eon”, and “aionion” is simply the adjective form of “aion“, following basic rules of language, we would have to conclude that the adjective form can only mean something that pertains to its noun. 25:41 and 2 Pet. So the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. It is so unlike Him. The fact that human beings were made in the very image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27) should suggest, to those who contemplate issues seriously, that we are more than mere temporal creatures passing through time toward oblivion. Is punishment “eternal”? Eternal conscious punishment is the view that the wicked will suffer the pains of hell forever. Does the indwelling life of Christ NOT pertain to the ages? In Chapter One we firmly established from Scripture that God Himself is going to forever destroy people who choose sin and reject his gift of salvation. Additionally, and curiously enough, in the King James Bible they translate eis aion aion (meaning – “unto the ages of the ages”) as forever and ever. Likewise, believers may have “the life of the ages” and also be promised a future immortality. THAT’S A HUGE RED FLAG! King David said this: Psalm 102:24 – I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. No verse in the Bible gives an expository description of what hell is or what it's about. In Answering Fundamentalism, Greek Word Study, Universal Salvation/Reconciliation by Forbidden TheologyApril 21, 2019. I will now quote the following from Merciful Truth: The reason that aionios was translated “everlasting” is largely due to a false assumption. In an interview a few years ago he stated, "My description is neither an annihilationist view nor an eternal conscious torment view." Which one cancels out the other? Let me begin with some of the weaker, though common, arguments that are often given for ECT. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary. If these first two points stand, “eternal punishment” should be translated as something like “age-to-come chastisement” and therefore, Matthew 25 could not be used to support the eternal, conscious torment view. Of course it does. He has adopted a theory that makes sense to him. Regardless of what “destroy” really means — whether literal destruction or eternal torment — the fact is that it is God Himself who is doing the destroying (or authorizing the destroying). Which is the reason why we need a resurrected body designed for such an occasion. John Stott admitted that eternal conscious punishment would be much more sensible to him if “perhaps (as has been argued) the impenitence of the lost also continues … 6. The above passage, 2 Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and hence, immortality was not available to us—life was not available to us. It means that there will be an age of correction and an age where those in Christ will be experiencing “life of the ages”. How much more so the prospect of subjecting a person to everlasting fiery conscious torment? Forbidden Theology. Copyright © 2020 Hell, Hades, and the Afterlife. We were recently forced out of the Mathison Response (together with several other writers) in a power play that attempted to compel all contributors to sign a doctrinal statement affirming their belief in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). Let’s break it down. Posted by. He is God of what He creates. Therefore everlasting destruction is not self-inflicted at all; it is executed by God himself as the just consequences for a person’s bad choices ( Matthew 10:28 , 2 Thessalonians 1:9 & James 4:12 ). Dan. Regardless of what “destroy” really means — whether literal destruction or eternal torment — the fact is that it is God Himself who is doing the destroying (or authorizing the destroying). Tartaro:Definition 1. Such an understanding does not rob God of his immortality, but simply underscores the important relationship drawn in the New Testament between God and the ages He created to execute his plan to live within his followers. Let’s recap the facts we’ve already discussed: Why should anyone assume that such facts would limit God? By that I mean, hell is not a place where people who sin and disbelieve are sent to be punished and tortured. [/Quote\] I disagree, the hellfire doctrine isn't in the scriptures. They are both true. And finally, I leave you with a powerful quote by Gary Amirault: “A loving Father knows how to bring correction to His children without consigning them to an endless torture chamber. It is His nature; there is no anger or fury in love; fury is not in me, Isa. The word aionios neither means “infinite” OR “temporary.” Instead, it means “PERTAINING to the aions/ages.” Does God NOT pertain to the ages? Eternal conscious torment is immoral by nature To accuse God of enacting eternal conscious torment would make God immoral. As we’ve demonstrated, though there is punishment, it is corrective – which automatically should disqualify “eternal” as a possible translation if given only the two options of: age-long & eternal. Knoch, brilliantly covers this concept in his book, All in All: “We protest against the translation of kolasis as “punishment.” Everywhere else in Greek this word denotes corrective chastisement, and is used of pruning. So I'm pretty sure the eternal conscious torment taught by Jesus (Matthew 25:46) contradicts the sense of God's justice in the OT, and you can hardly blame a skeptic for using the earliest revelation as the gold standard by which to judge the later revelation. Stopped in its tracks which of course is the LOF is the LOF is the opposite of eternal was... More so the prospect of subjecting a person needs some kind of life in order to.! Find the word “ eternal conscious torment those in hell ] I disagree, the meaning... 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